Excellent timing, Highlander! Last night i was having a debate with my mate who was championing the 'free market economy'. I was arguing that there were untested alternatives to this. Of course his examples of how 'communism' had been tried and failed drew on the former eastern bloc countries (although their economic crises largely show evidence of the failings of immature capitalist societies since the demise of the Soviet Union) and of course China and North Korea. Hopefully once someone replies to your statement with 'oh yes it is' you can tell us all the diference between communism and the state controlled economies of the 'Communist' countries that we have been taught to despise)))
Of course it's not. Neither is Russia, Cuba, North Korea, or any other dismal failure of the socialist experiment. Your idea of utopia keeps on proving to be a death camp, so keep on saying the next time will be different because it'll be run by people like you and your friends.
Why are people not allowed to leave these shitholes, and as a child of western wealth why do you fetishize the suffering of the Proletariat?
Prove you're not an intellectual coward by volunteering to live like the common worker in N Korea. No Potemkin Villages either.
@ Walker - I think your probably right but I will persevere...
@ anonymous - I have decided to give you two answers. The first is similarly ignorant and insulting to your own comment while the second deals with your comment piece by piece. You are free to choose which you prefer and, obviously, which you might like to respond to. You might even like to consider how you approach leaving comments in future based on these responses and hopefully we will be able to ascertain whether you are capable of listening to reasoned argument from somebody with a different opinion to yourself (as opposed to just calling them a "coward").
RESPONSE 1: Anonymous, clearly you do not read my blog often or, if you do, you are clearly incapable of distinguishing between "state capitalism" and "socialism". As a result, I can only assume that you are a BBC HYSer who has lost their way with their small-minded link-clicking so may I be the first to send you back where you belong. The blog you are after is called spEak You’re bRanes and it is choc-full of comments from idiots like yourself who deserve nothing more than having the piss taken out of them. Hell, you even use a twist on the classic "If you like it so much why don't you go and live there" argument that their URL is based on and normally espoused by morons so you should feel right at home.
RESPONSE 2: Welcome anonymous and thanks for taking the time.
Let's look at your comment in detail:
"Of course it's not." We appear to agree that China is not communist but then you say "Neither is Russia, Cuba, North Korea, or any other dismal failure of the socialist experiment." which appears to contradict that agreement so I think I can conclude it is sarcasm. I would argue that none of those countries are socialist, they are all state capitalist. That is, the economy is run by the government for the benefit of the government and the ruling class first and the people as an afterthought (like most governments). State ownership of industry, as I said in Statement Of Fact 1 , is not socialism. Socialism entails common ownership by everyone, not ownership by capitalists as in the West or by state or government as in the countries you quote.
"Your idea of utopia keeps on proving to be a death camp,..." China, N Korea and the rest are not my idea of 'utopia'. Far from it. China can not possibly be a communist country for so many reasons, the state repression, the capitalist economy (both state and private) and not least of all the complete absence of any democratic model. "...so keep on saying the next time will be different because it'll be run by people like you and your friends." I have absolutely no desire to run anybody's life. I do not wish to be in government and I have no desire to make 'the rules'. I am heavily anti-authoritarian so by the same token, I do not wish to be subject to state control over my life (not as repressive as China agreed but I do object to ID cards, the proliferation of anti-terror legislation, FIT teams, etc.), I do not want any religious direction over my life and I feel no particularly nationalist leanings so an end to borders would be good as well.
"Why are people not allowed to leave these shitholes..." An excellent question. If they were socialist countries they would be free to travel and I can think of no reason why socialism need impair their freedom. The answer lies in the fact these are authoritarian states which bear no resemblence to any kind of 'socialism' I would recognise. "...and as a child of western wealth why do you fetishize the suffering of the Proletariat?" Unfortunately you have no idea how much money I do or do not have and wealth is relative in a global perspective. I consider myself working class. I have to work for a living as I do not own the shares, property, companies et al which would allow me not to work. That is, to reap a profit from another persons labour. As such, I am not fetishizing anything. I consider that the world is run for the interests of, and by, the few at the expense of the vast majority of people on the planet. I do not believe that is democratic. Whether it is a nurse in the US, an IT worker in the UK, a builder in Poland, a farmhand in S Africa or whoever - if people have to work for a living or to survive then they are working class. That is a fact, not a fetish.
"Prove you're not an intellectual coward by volunteering to live like the common worker in N Korea. No Potemkin Villages either." I do not believe that my volunteering to go and live in a state capitalist society as opposed to the UK would prove anything necessarily other than perhaps my being a bit soft in the head. Especially given that it is N Korea. Although I suppose it would prove that I was easily influenced over the 'Net - perhaps somebody might try and politically groom me? The reference to 'Potemkin Villages' is good as I feel no particular compulsion to have to dress my beliefs up for anybody, I state them as they are and I daresay that some people can agree with me, some can agree with some of it and others, possibly yourself, are vehemently opposed to it.
"Coward." Like I said, I believe that the various forms of government instituted around the world, from around the Industrial Revolution onwards, have all been capitalist in nature irrespective of their political name. I am happy to say that I believe both the vast majority of people on the planet and the planet itself would benefit from an end to capitalism and the institution of libertarian socialism.
Bravo, H. Thanks for the link to spEak You’re bRanes- great reading. Do you think that 'Coward' might actually be anonymous' name? You know, like Sir Noel?
Walker, I hadn't considered the possibility that 'coward' was anon's name but I doubt it ;)
On another note, what has happened to your comments boxes? I tried to leave one on the Ju-Ju post yesterday saying fave Banshees album and that I had been listening to it on CD in the kitchen (cooking/washing up) over the last few days, but the word verification is only half-visible so impossible to submit.
9 comments:
Excellent timing, Highlander! Last night i was having a debate with my mate who was championing the 'free market economy'. I was arguing that there were untested alternatives to this. Of course his examples of how 'communism' had been tried and failed drew on the former eastern bloc countries (although their economic crises largely show evidence of the failings of immature capitalist societies since the demise of the Soviet Union) and of course China and North Korea.
Hopefully once someone replies to your statement with 'oh yes it is' you can tell us all the diference between communism and the state controlled economies of the 'Communist' countries that we have been taught to despise)))
Of course it's not. Neither is Russia, Cuba, North Korea, or any other dismal failure of the socialist experiment. Your idea of utopia keeps on proving to be a death camp, so keep on saying the next time will be different because it'll be run by people like you and your friends.
Why are people not allowed to leave these shitholes, and as a child of western wealth why do you fetishize the suffering of the Proletariat?
Prove you're not an intellectual coward by volunteering to live like the common worker in N Korea. No Potemkin Villages either.
Coward.
I think anonymous has missed the point.
@ Walker - I think your probably right but I will persevere...
@ anonymous - I have decided to give you two answers. The first is similarly ignorant and insulting to your own comment while the second deals with your comment piece by piece. You are free to choose which you prefer and, obviously, which you might like to respond to. You might even like to consider how you approach leaving comments in future based on these responses and hopefully we will be able to ascertain whether you are capable of listening to reasoned argument from somebody with a different opinion to yourself (as opposed to just calling them a "coward").
RESPONSE 1:
Anonymous, clearly you do not read my blog often or, if you do, you are clearly incapable of distinguishing between "state capitalism" and "socialism". As a result, I can only assume that you are a BBC HYSer who has lost their way with their small-minded link-clicking so may I be the first to send you back where you belong. The blog you are after is called spEak You’re bRanes and it is choc-full of comments from idiots like yourself who deserve nothing more than having the piss taken out of them. Hell, you even use a twist on the classic "If you like it so much why don't you go and live there" argument that their URL is based on and normally espoused by morons so you should feel right at home.
RESPONSE 2:
Welcome anonymous and thanks for taking the time.
Let's look at your comment in detail:
"Of course it's not." We appear to agree that China is not communist but then you say "Neither is Russia, Cuba, North Korea, or any other dismal failure of the socialist experiment." which appears to contradict that agreement so I think I can conclude it is sarcasm. I would argue that none of those countries are socialist, they are all state capitalist. That is, the economy is run by the government for the benefit of the government and the ruling class first and the people as an afterthought (like most governments). State ownership of industry, as I said in Statement Of Fact 1 , is not socialism. Socialism entails common ownership by everyone, not ownership by capitalists as in the West or by state or government as in the countries you quote.
TBC
"Your idea of utopia keeps on proving to be a death camp,..." China, N Korea and the rest are not my idea of 'utopia'. Far from it. China can not possibly be a communist country for so many reasons, the state repression, the capitalist economy (both state and private) and not least of all the complete absence of any democratic model. "...so keep on saying the next time will be different because it'll be run by people like you and your friends." I have absolutely no desire to run anybody's life. I do not wish to be in government and I have no desire to make 'the rules'. I am heavily anti-authoritarian so by the same token, I do not wish to be subject to state control over my life (not as repressive as China agreed but I do object to ID cards, the proliferation of anti-terror legislation, FIT teams, etc.), I do not want any religious direction over my life and I feel no particularly nationalist leanings so an end to borders would be good as well.
"Why are people not allowed to leave these shitholes..." An excellent question. If they were socialist countries they would be free to travel and I can think of no reason why socialism need impair their freedom. The answer lies in the fact these are authoritarian states which bear no resemblence to any kind of 'socialism' I would recognise. "...and as a child of western wealth why do you fetishize the suffering of the Proletariat?" Unfortunately you have no idea how much money I do or do not have and wealth is relative in a global perspective. I consider myself working class. I have to work for a living as I do not own the shares, property, companies et al which would allow me not to work. That is, to reap a profit from another persons labour. As such, I am not fetishizing anything. I consider that the world is run for the interests of, and by, the few at the expense of the vast majority of people on the planet. I do not believe that is democratic. Whether it is a nurse in the US, an IT worker in the UK, a builder in Poland, a farmhand in S Africa or whoever - if people have to work for a living or to survive then they are working class. That is a fact, not a fetish.
"Prove you're not an intellectual coward by volunteering to live like the common worker in N Korea. No Potemkin Villages either." I do not believe that my volunteering to go and live in a state capitalist society as opposed to the UK would prove anything necessarily other than perhaps my being a bit soft in the head. Especially given that it is N Korea. Although I suppose it would prove that I was easily influenced over the 'Net - perhaps somebody might try and politically groom me? The reference to 'Potemkin Villages' is good as I feel no particular compulsion to have to dress my beliefs up for anybody, I state them as they are and I daresay that some people can agree with me, some can agree with some of it and others, possibly yourself, are vehemently opposed to it.
"Coward." Like I said, I believe that the various forms of government instituted around the world, from around the Industrial Revolution onwards, have all been capitalist in nature irrespective of their political name. I am happy to say that I believe both the vast majority of people on the planet and the planet itself would benefit from an end to capitalism and the institution of libertarian socialism.
Bravo, H. Thanks for the link to spEak You’re bRanes- great reading.
Do you think that 'Coward' might actually be anonymous' name? You know, like Sir Noel?
Walker, I hadn't considered the possibility that 'coward' was anon's name but I doubt it ;)
On another note, what has happened to your comments boxes? I tried to leave one on the Ju-Ju post yesterday saying fave Banshees album and that I had been listening to it on CD in the kitchen (cooking/washing up) over the last few days, but the word verification is only half-visible so impossible to submit.
I had no idea about that mate! I'll sort it out as soon as I get back from North Korea
not only china, even north korea,cuba,ussr,ect.
this is called total baureaucratic capitalism.
the revolutionary marxism has to do with situationism and council communism not with leninism,stalinism,maoism and other dictatorian regimes.
Post a Comment